re: item 3, the 'logic' argument, I just received this message: "I'm trying to understand your perspective when you say that I control things in our relationship. Do you have any examples in the last year where you can call out that behaviour?"
“They may demand evidence, research, outside opinions, or other forms of ‘proof’ to support what you are saying, leaving you feeling like you are under cross-examination. You end up explaining and justifying yourself endlessly, trying to translate your feelings into arguments that will be taken seriously.”
The example you gave is another textbook example! The way the responsibility for understanding their own behaviour is being handed over to you! Instead of reflecting on the dynamic, they’re asking you to become the evidence gatherer, the analyst, the one who has to “prove” the power imbalance to the very person who benefits from it.
Mine would do this all the time too. At first I would fall into the trap. And once I would start explaining, he would simply debate the examples I gave, dismiss them, minimise them, or reframe them. It becomes a trap where you are busy defending, and they stay busy denying. It is a no win situation.
The approach I take now is to not respond at all, but if ignoring leads to further lashing out, it can help to have a few one-liners to draw from , like 'If you're unsure, it's your responsibility to reflect on it', or 'You already know which behaviours I'm talking about'
Thank you for validating my experience, and this tip. I initially responded by saying "Not going to engage in this", then deleted it. About 2 hours later he phoned me, so I let it ring out. I have told him that I now prefer to communicate in writing, and take notes after every conversation, as he tends to deny he said things, or tells me it was a joke, or complains that I took up his meaning wrong, put the worst possible twist on everything.
Keeping detailed notes like that is also so helpful for seeing exactly how the manipulations play out. Once you have a clear record of it, they can deny all they want, but you can stand so firmly in your own truth because you see exactly what they are doing.
My response: "I believe that it could be more helpful, instead of asking for specific "verifiable evidence", to reflect on our historical disagreements and their outcomes. I again reccommend that a suitably trained neutral supporter (counsellor, therapist) be engaged to assist and support in this reflection."
Well done holding the line and not giving into the demands. Do you mind me asking whether you are recommending joint therapy with the two of you together, or therapy for him on his own?
Also: it is early in our separation (about 8 weeks) so we are still figuring out the dynamic and how to survive it.
He offered to do a really big favour for my family last weekend, and we gratefully accepted as the alternatives really sucked. But now he has painted himself as a saviour/martyr and, I think, expects huge brownie points for it.
Those early days are so very hard! I was still in complete survival mode at that point, trying to navigate the daily minefields. But you sound so attuned to your needs and to his manipulations, you are going to get through this 💛
Unfortunately, their favours always come with an agenda and an expectation for something in return.
Yes, so very well camouflaged! Even when you feel the true intention in your gut, that self-doubt creeps back in, and you wonder whether you are reading things all wrong. It is a psychological minefield.
Learning about the common tactics and language they may use helps though because then you know exactly what to look out for.
Bravo! A great article. These phrases are triggering to me because just hearing them I know that they are manipulations and abuse. Such lies abusers spin.
Thank you, I am so glad you found it helpful. I know exactly what you mean about it being triggering - once you've lived through it, these phrases can hit your body before you even have time to think about them. Your brain remembers having heard similar and the impact they had on you. Even when I hear them used in a healthy context, I still feel myself clench. The positive is we can see through the manipulations and lies now, and that is like walking through life wearing protective armour!
ooo, I knew this would hit home!
re: item 3, the 'logic' argument, I just received this message: "I'm trying to understand your perspective when you say that I control things in our relationship. Do you have any examples in the last year where you can call out that behaviour?"
“They may demand evidence, research, outside opinions, or other forms of ‘proof’ to support what you are saying, leaving you feeling like you are under cross-examination. You end up explaining and justifying yourself endlessly, trying to translate your feelings into arguments that will be taken seriously.”
The example you gave is another textbook example! The way the responsibility for understanding their own behaviour is being handed over to you! Instead of reflecting on the dynamic, they’re asking you to become the evidence gatherer, the analyst, the one who has to “prove” the power imbalance to the very person who benefits from it.
Mine would do this all the time too. At first I would fall into the trap. And once I would start explaining, he would simply debate the examples I gave, dismiss them, minimise them, or reframe them. It becomes a trap where you are busy defending, and they stay busy denying. It is a no win situation.
The approach I take now is to not respond at all, but if ignoring leads to further lashing out, it can help to have a few one-liners to draw from , like 'If you're unsure, it's your responsibility to reflect on it', or 'You already know which behaviours I'm talking about'
Thank you for validating my experience, and this tip. I initially responded by saying "Not going to engage in this", then deleted it. About 2 hours later he phoned me, so I let it ring out. I have told him that I now prefer to communicate in writing, and take notes after every conversation, as he tends to deny he said things, or tells me it was a joke, or complains that I took up his meaning wrong, put the worst possible twist on everything.
This sounds like a very wise strategy.
Keeping detailed notes like that is also so helpful for seeing exactly how the manipulations play out. Once you have a clear record of it, they can deny all they want, but you can stand so firmly in your own truth because you see exactly what they are doing.
Update this morning: he resent the message, adding "Genuine Request".
My response: "I believe that it could be more helpful, instead of asking for specific "verifiable evidence", to reflect on our historical disagreements and their outcomes. I again reccommend that a suitably trained neutral supporter (counsellor, therapist) be engaged to assist and support in this reflection."
Well done holding the line and not giving into the demands. Do you mind me asking whether you are recommending joint therapy with the two of you together, or therapy for him on his own?
Also: it is early in our separation (about 8 weeks) so we are still figuring out the dynamic and how to survive it.
He offered to do a really big favour for my family last weekend, and we gratefully accepted as the alternatives really sucked. But now he has painted himself as a saviour/martyr and, I think, expects huge brownie points for it.
Those early days are so very hard! I was still in complete survival mode at that point, trying to navigate the daily minefields. But you sound so attuned to your needs and to his manipulations, you are going to get through this 💛
Unfortunately, their favours always come with an agenda and an expectation for something in return.
Also: “Don’t take it the wrong way, but…” followed by an insult of some kind
So upsetting to read. It is camouflaged control, very thinly disguised, as you will feel the pressure and deception in your body.
Yes, so very well camouflaged! Even when you feel the true intention in your gut, that self-doubt creeps back in, and you wonder whether you are reading things all wrong. It is a psychological minefield.
Learning about the common tactics and language they may use helps though because then you know exactly what to look out for.
Bravo! A great article. These phrases are triggering to me because just hearing them I know that they are manipulations and abuse. Such lies abusers spin.
Thank you, I am so glad you found it helpful. I know exactly what you mean about it being triggering - once you've lived through it, these phrases can hit your body before you even have time to think about them. Your brain remembers having heard similar and the impact they had on you. Even when I hear them used in a healthy context, I still feel myself clench. The positive is we can see through the manipulations and lies now, and that is like walking through life wearing protective armour!
Protective armour, I like that! I have a visual of it in my head.
Also, “I didn’t mean it that way. You’re upset because you CHOSE to interpret my words that way” ugh I hate that one